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Rancher Value

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Anonymous

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A quote from the McNameeAngus sale catalog:
EN (energy) and W (weaning) value

Most of you know I have never been a number cruncher when it comes to EPDs. I still believe more in what my eye tells me and what the pedigree says then what a computer tells me. Having said that, I've been following the EN (energy) value and the W (Weaning) value that the AmericanAngus Association is now using and defines as the following:

Cow energy value ($EN), expressed in dollars savings per cow per year, assesses differences in cow energy reqirements as an expected dollar savings difference in daughters of a sire. A larger value is more favorable when comparing two animals (more dollars saved on feed energy expenses). Components for computing the Cow $EN savings difference include lactation energy requirements and energy costs associated with differences in cow size.

Weaned calf value ($W), an index value expressed in dollars per head, is the expected average difference in future progeny performance for pre-weaning merit. $W includes both revenue and cost adjustments associated with differences in birth weight, weaning direct growth, maternal milk and mature cow size.

Both are significant values for a cow-calf producer. There should be a rancher value that combines the two ($EN & $W). This year we have added all $EN and $W values to our reference sires and sale bulls.
Click to expand...
I couldn't agree more with him- and lately these are the major EPDs I look at- altho many sales catalogs don't list them at all (possibly because most don't like publishing the high negative $EN :???: )..Deboos (Diamond D) do advertise and list combined ($EN and $W) values- and maybe that is a good name for it - rancher value... About the only sales I'll even take an interest in anymore are those listing them..
 
It bugs the heck out'a me to do this but...... I agree! :wink: I really look at the $EN value and the $W too. EPD's are tools that may or may not work for everyone. I try to give the sale catalogs a good going over looking at numbers. Then I spend time looking up pedigrees for pathfinders and such. Then I spend a couple of hours presale letting my eyes tell me what thay think of the cattle. The numbers help but the eyes decide. I do wish more catalogs had actual BW numbers for each bull.
 
OT exactly how would you combine the 2 values to arrive at your Rancher Value? I noticed in one of your posts on ACS that you subtracted one from the other. I like the idea. Just need to understand it better.
 
Dylan Biggs said:
OT exactly how would you combine the 2 values to arrive at your Rancher Value? I noticed in one of your posts on ACS that you subtracted one from the other. I like the idea. Just need to understand it better.
Click to expand...

Well the current bulls I own numbers are:

$W +24.74 $EN +15.24 for a Rancher Value of +$39.98
$W +24.09 $EN +14.94 for a Rancher Value of +$39.03

The AI bull I used this year (OCC Magnitude) is

$W +32.10 $EN +14.11 for a Rancher Value of +$46.21

The bull I did on ACS was just in a sale and had a

$W +27.11 but his SEN was a negative 18.77- so adding the two +27.11 with -18.77 came up with a Ranchers Value of $8.34...

He sold for over $40,000 so go figure... :wink: But he wouldn't work for me with a WW of +70, YW of +136, Milk of +28, MW of +57, and MH of +.7...
Definitely not my idea of a cowmaker....

Deboos over at Diamond D have been using this type of combined "ranchers value" for years in evaluating and advertising their cattle- and they have some that list in the +50 range...
 
That's an interesting theory. I would guess it would be very difficult and expensive to feed all your cows separately and weigh their feed to come up with an accurate number for her efficiency.
 
Oldtimer said:
Dylan Biggs said:
OT exactly how would you combine the 2 values to arrive at your Rancher Value? I noticed in one of your posts on ACS that you subtracted one from the other. I like the idea. Just need to understand it better.
Click to expand...

Well the current bulls I own numbers are:

$W +24.74 $EN +15.24 for a Rancher Value of +$39.98
$W +24.09 $EN +14.94 for a Rancher Value of +$39.03

The AI bull I used this year (OCC Magnitude) is

$W +32.10 $EN +14.11 for a Rancher Value of +$46.21

The bull I did on ACS was just in a sale and had a

$W +27.11 but his SEN was a negative 18.77- so adding the two +27.11 with -18.77 came up with a Ranchers Value of $8.34...

He sold for over $40,000 so go figure... :wink: But he wouldn't work for me with a WW of +70, YW of +136, Milk of +28, MW of +57, and MH of +.7...
Definitely not my idea of a cowmaker....

Deboos over at Diamond D have been using this type of combined "ranchers value" for years in evaluating and advertising their cattle- and they have some that list in the +50 range...
Click to expand...

Thanks OT. I think looking at the numbers this way has merit relative to a maternal efficiency sire selection perspective. In theory this should select for those sires whose daughters, in relative terms, can do more on less. A have your cake and eat it to type scenario.
 
Dylan Biggs said:
Oldtimer said:
Dylan Biggs said:
OT exactly how would you combine the 2 values to arrive at your Rancher Value? I noticed in one of your posts on ACS that you subtracted one from the other. I like the idea. Just need to understand it better.
Click to expand...

Well the current bulls I own numbers are:

$W +24.74 $EN +15.24 for a Rancher Value of +$39.98
$W +24.09 $EN +14.94 for a Rancher Value of +$39.03

The AI bull I used this year (OCC Magnitude) is

$W +32.10 $EN +14.11 for a Rancher Value of +$46.21

The bull I did on ACS was just in a sale and had a

$W +27.11 but his SEN was a negative 18.77- so adding the two +27.11 with -18.77 came up with a Ranchers Value of $8.34...

He sold for over $40,000 so go figure... :wink: But he wouldn't work for me with a WW of +70, YW of +136, Milk of +28, MW of +57, and MH of +.7...
Definitely not my idea of a cowmaker....

Deboos over at Diamond D have been using this type of combined "ranchers value" for years in evaluating and advertising their cattle- and they have some that list in the +50 range...
Click to expand...

Thanks OT. I think looking at the numbers this way has merit relative to a maternal efficiency sire selection perspective. In theory this should select for those sires whose daughters, in relative terms, can do more on less. A have your cake and eat it to type scenario.
Click to expand...

Yep-- or a "moderation in all traits" to get good momma cows- instead of just chasing higher performance numbers....
 
interesting idea. now i gotta' go punch some numbers.

it looks like the 9 registered bulls i own, they range from 26.11 to 39.53. now i'd like to know what the commercial bulls would be. i'm guessing they would all be in the mid to high 40s. :wink:
 
Oldtimer said:
Dylan Biggs said:
Oldtimer said:
Well the current bulls I own numbers are:

$W +24.74 $EN +15.24 for a Rancher Value of +$39.98
$W +24.09 $EN +14.94 for a Rancher Value of +$39.03

The AI bull I used this year (OCC Magnitude) is

$W +32.10 $EN +14.11 for a Rancher Value of +$46.21

The bull I did on ACS was just in a sale and had a

$W +27.11 but his SEN was a negative 18.77- so adding the two +27.11 with -18.77 came up with a Ranchers Value of $8.34...

He sold for over $40,000 so go figure... :wink: But he wouldn't work for me with a WW of +70, YW of +136, Milk of +28, MW of +57, and MH of +.7...
Definitely not my idea of a cowmaker....

Deboos over at Diamond D have been using this type of combined "ranchers value" for years in evaluating and advertising their cattle- and they have some that list in the +50 range...
Click to expand...

Thanks OT. I think looking at the numbers this way has merit relative to a maternal efficiency sire selection perspective. In theory this should select for those sires whose daughters, in relative terms, can do more on less. A have your cake and eat it to type scenario.
Click to expand...

Yep-- or a "moderation in all traits" to get good momma cows- instead of just chasing higher performance numbers....
Click to expand...

No doubt. Its funny though how breeders can convince themselves that they are making progress when the numbers keep going up. Like you the the bigger, better, faster race is not one I want to be in let alone win.
 
Okay I guess I'll just come right out and ask..... how can one accurately assess this $en to a cow without accurately measuring energy intake? Sounds like an arbitrary number assigned to a cow based on nothing but some rather broad assumptions. Or am I missing something obvious here?
 
Silver said:
Okay I guess I'll just come right out and ask..... how can one accurately assess this $en to a cow without accurately measuring energy intake? Sounds like an arbitrary number assigned to a cow based on nothing but some rather broad assumptions. Or am I missing something obvious here?
Click to expand...

As I understand it ( I may or may not), the epd's and or $ values are not specifically a prediction of individual animal performance, rather a prediction of the differences between sire progeny populations.
See below, for an explanation of the application of epd,s and $values.




http://www.angus.org/Nce/Definitions.aspx
 
From what I see, there are no "Accuracy" values associated with these calculations. :roll:

There has to be a reason............................................
 
Mike said:
From what I see, there are no "Accuracy" values associated with these calculations. :roll:

There has to be a reason............................................
Click to expand...

Good point. I am not a 100% sold on the $ values, that being said though if
I am going to pay attention to any of the $ values it seems to me OT's Rancher #Value suggestion would the most practical relative to coomercial cow calf enterprise.

I may not be right about this but my understanding is that the $ value projections are only as accurate as the epd's are that they use to formulate
the $ values. In other words the more accuracy an individuals epd's the more accurate the $ values. Who knows, the $values might be just wishful number play, and an additional marketing ploy.
 
In theory EPD's are a great tool, but they are only as reliable as the the people doing the reporting and recording. I know several breeders who boast about fudging the numbers. It seems the less a breed relies on the show ring, to boost image and market females and bulls, the more reliable the numbers. Fudging numbers makes your stock more valuable, just like creep feeding and feeding the yearlings hard. Just iratates the h--- out of me how short sighted selfish some are, its all about the money and promotion.
 
ya know I would say that most people, 90%+ or so, understand and value what the EPD's are and could be. I think the birth wt has a very high accuracy but from there it starts to slide. To me the ww and yw are a fed in value and management value. I would like more ultrasound data and honest yr wt and frame size, pelvic size, etc.
 
As in everything these are tools to use. Saying that $en would be tough to fugde if useing AI there is quite a spread between the negative to the positive $en normally a lower milk epd is a part of the equation. Your better off to use moderation in all areas than to focus your whole breeding program on $en and $wean. I use AI bulls that are proven and try to match their genetics with cows that need a little tweaking. Were not trying to move the cows in big leaps and bounds just keep an even keel.More or less just maintain what I've got. It takes a lifetime to build a herd of cows and one wrong move could screw up years of work.So don't get to focused on one aspect of the epd game.
 
We rely heavily on EPD in our selection and don't generally spend a lot of time looking at bulls outside of our parameter set. We also rely very heavily on picking programs with a program that are worried about their commercial customer and not what show they are winning. If you are worried about the integrity of the person you are dealing with then any actual weights from the operation would seem suspect in my mind as well. I feel that we deal with some of the greatest people/families I know and I don't lose sleep over whether they are trying to take my money, because I know they are trying to serve me as their customer.
Also, when we rely heavily on EPD, we don't rely heavily on the largest/fastest/strongest EPD.
They have worked really well for us, but we are looking for a specific range on values given what we do...
 
Oldtimer said:
A quote from the McNameeAngus sale catalog:
EN (energy) and W (weaning) value

Most of you know I have never been a number cruncher when it comes to EPDs. I still believe more in what my eye tells me and what the pedigree says then what a computer tells me. Having said that, I've been following the EN (energy) value and the W (Weaning) value that the AmericanAngus Association is now using and defines as the following:

Cow energy value ($EN), expressed in dollars savings per cow per year, assesses differences in cow energy reqirements as an expected dollar savings difference in daughters of a sire. A larger value is more favorable when comparing two animals (more dollars saved on feed energy expenses). Components for computing the Cow $EN savings difference include lactation energy requirements and energy costs associated with differences in cow size.

Weaned calf value ($W), an index value expressed in dollars per head, is the expected average difference in future progeny performance for pre-weaning merit. $W includes both revenue and cost adjustments associated with differences in birth weight, weaning direct growth, maternal milk and mature cow size.

Both are significant values for a cow-calf producer. There should be a rancher value that combines the two ($EN & $W). This year we have added all $EN and $W values to our reference sires and sale bulls.
Click to expand...
I couldn't agree more with him- and lately these are the major EPDs I look at- altho many sales catalogs don't list them at all (possibly because most don't like publishing the high negative $EN :???: )..Deboos (Diamond D) do advertise and list combined ($EN and $W) values- and maybe that is a good name for it - rancher value... About the only sales I'll even take an interest in anymore are those listing them..
Click to expand...

As you have heard me say lots of times on Cattle Today the $EN epd is the most important one to look at when wanting easy keeping/fleshing cows, imo. Not because I said it, but I told my Genex rep about 3 yrs ago that Genex was almost void of any bulls exhibiting positive $EN epds. At that time he said you're the only one of my customers that has mentioned $EN epd's. Today I see they have quite a few in their lineup. As someone else mentioned and I agree you have to balance all epd's (and other things as well) but especially $EN and Milk. I kinda like the Rancher Value idea.
 
You would be surprised at the folks who do NOT understand EPD's.
Personally, I glance at them but never pick a bull on EPD's. I might
discount a bull with too high milk EPD's or too small of scrotal
size. As for frame size, I study that and I know what bloodlines I want in our cattle.
So I guess I would say I choose a bull on his bloodlines. The
older bloodlines don't have the high EPD numbers the bulls do now,
but so many of those old bloodlines are what I want in my cows. They
are very proven by now.

Look at Soapweed's program. He buys commercial yearling bulls
with no data and it looks like his operation is very viable. The
calves he posted pictures of are knock-out calves. I guess I worry
more about the factory than the sire. Just sayin'...
 

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