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My take

Things that come up in the daily operation of a ranch.
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Big Muddy rancher
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Re: My take

Postby Big Muddy rancher » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 am

For one thing doing "Due diligence" on information in background checks.In the Texas church shooting the Navyhadn't recorded his discharge due to mental reasons, He had bought a legal gun but background info was incomplete.
Florida shooter had many run ins with the law, why was he cleared to buy a gun?
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Re: My take

Postby Big Muddy rancher » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:27 am

The definition of Militia,

A militia /mɪˈlɪʃə/[1] is generally an army or some other fighting organization of non-professional soldiers, citizens of a nation, or subjects of a state, who can be called upon for military service during a time of need, as opposed to a professional force of regular, full-time military personnel, or historically, members of a warrior nobility class (e.g., knights or samurai). Generally unable to hold ground against regular forces, it is common for militias to be used for aiding regular troops by skirmishing, holding fortifications, or irregular warfare, instead of being used in offensive campaigns by themselves. Militia are often limited by local civilian laws to serve only in their home region, and to serve only for a limited time; this further reduces their use in long military campaigns.

Would the citizens of George Washingtonian"s day not had the same arms as the army.
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Re: My take

Postby littlejoe » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:48 am

Big Muddy rancher wrote:"Having said that I don't believe that an AR15 (semi auto), AR16, AK47, mini Mac or any other fully automatic weapon has a place in civilian hands. They are not hunting weapons and their sole purpose is to kill - other people"

It shouldn't take a Canadian to explain that the 2nd Amendment didn't give US citizens the right to hunt deer.


I was taught that full auto is to gain 'superiority of fire'--rock and roll is to make bad guys get their heads down so you could get yours down.

I was partial to a 3 round burst, an m-16 hung nicely under your armpit with extra strap off your backpack thru the carrying handle. Would come up very nicely and quickly with your hand on the grip, thumb cycling selector. Interestingly, an m16 was safe then semi then auto, an ak you went thru auto to get to semi.

I could shoot a burst of 3--from under armpit, quite accurately--full auto is kinda fun when you're screwing around with free ammo, tactically, I wouldn't miss it. Shooting from the hip, I could hit a barn, providing I was inside and all doors were shut. WWII Remington Rand .45 was similar, but needed smaller barn. But a lovely weapon--ALWAYS worked-- and great club.

I think the ammo expended per confirmed kill (Vietnam) was about 50,000 rounds. Anybody who grew up shooting (and buying their own ammo--lol) knows it an't how many you shoot, it's how many that hit.

I believe in gun ownership and private property rights----But I don't need to have a full auto, a 'bump stock' or an ammo can of 30 round clips.

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Re: My take

Postby lavacarancher » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:30 pm

littlejoe wrote:
Big Muddy rancher wrote:"Having said that I don't believe that an AR15 (semi auto), AR16, AK47, mini Mac or any other fully automatic weapon has a place in civilian hands. They are not hunting weapons and their sole purpose is to kill - other people"

It shouldn't take a Canadian to explain that the 2nd Amendment didn't give US citizens the right to hunt deer.


I was taught that full auto is to gain 'superiority of fire'--rock and roll is to make bad guys get their heads down so you could get yours down.

I was partial to a 3 round burst, an m-16 hung nicely under your armpit with extra strap off your backpack thru the carrying handle. Would come up very nicely and quickly with your hand on the grip, thumb cycling selector. Interestingly, an m16 was safe then semi then auto, an ak you went thru auto to get to semi.

I could shoot a burst of 3--from under armpit, quite accurately--full auto is kinda fun when you're screwing around with free ammo, tactically, I wouldn't miss it. Shooting from the hip, I could hit a barn, providing I was inside and all doors were shut. WWII Remington Rand .45 was similar, but needed smaller barn. But a lovely weapon--ALWAYS worked-- and great club.

I think the ammo expended per confirmed kill (Vietnam) was about 50,000 rounds. Anybody who grew up shooting (and buying their own ammo--lol) knows it an't how many you shoot, it's how many that hit.

But I don't need to have a full auto, a 'bump stock' or an ammo can of 30 round clips.


Exactly the point!

Big, I am assuming that you were trying to make a literal statement about the second amendment. No one (NO ONE) would put a group of people in harms way without SOME training. You need to show militia members at least which end of the weapon goes against the shoulder, don't you think? I think Little Joe says it pretty good. Who needs full auto, bump stock and a dozen 30 round clips? Not having one doesn't prevent me from going hunting.

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Re: My take

Postby lavacarancher » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:56 pm

Big Muddy rancher wrote:The definition of Militia,

A militia /mɪˈlɪʃə/[1] is generally an army or some other fighting organization of non-professional soldiers, citizens of a nation, or subjects of a state, who can be called upon for military service during a time of need, as opposed to a professional force of regular, full-time military personnel, or historically, members of a warrior nobility class (e.g., knights or samurai). Generally unable to hold ground against regular forces, it is common for militias to be used for aiding regular troops by skirmishing, holding fortifications, or irregular warfare, instead of being used in offensive campaigns by themselves. Militia are often limited by local civilian laws to serve only in their home region, and to serve only for a limited time; this further reduces their use in long military campaigns.

Would the citizens of George Washingtonian"s day not had the same arms as the army.


Exactly the same weapons - that's all that was available unless you categorize rocks and sticks as effective weapons.

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Re: My take

Postby George » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:35 pm

Sorry if I upset you but while not in daily use the " machine gun " was in use in France almost 100 years before we became a country. the Puckle Gun was patented in 1717.

Lewis and Clark made their exploration mostly due to the inplyed threat that they would use a silent semi automatic rifle if attacked. Go to and youwill see that artful deception can be a great tool.

A milita in those days was a gathering of people for a common cause ( to fight an unjust government ) and I am so glad they did just that!

Come up with a great solution and I am all for it - - - but look at what is working now - - - reinventing the wheel might sound great but unless you have a much greater wheel it is just posturing!

I do sometimes lose patience with people who spout the popular retoric without checking the facts. I do not like the fact that there is evil in the world but I recognise that it is true - - - go back to your Bible and remember Satan was once with God but decided to break away - - - he has not given up and will not and as long as he exist eivl will be here in one form or another - - - we either go along with it or fight it- - - I chose to resist.

The armed air marshall are stopping a problem that did not exist when law abiding citizens with concealed weapon permits and law enforcement officers were allowed to carry on planes - - - when they were banned was when the terrorist felt brave enough to act. The government is very good at proposing solutions to problems they create!

Thomas Jefferson said the government does not grant us our rights it is to reaffirm our God given rights!
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Re: My take

Postby leanin' H » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:07 pm

lavacarancher wrote:George (and Big Muddy) I am not trying to start an argument, just offering another opinion. Opinions are like elbows, everyone has at least one. Again, I respectfully disagree about the comment as to the reason for the decline in aircraft hijackings. I don't believe it was the armed air marshalls that stopped the carnage but rather the fact that the weapons and nut cases were stopped BEFORE they were able to board. Metal detectors and body searches is the reason folks who want to do harm are not allowed on an airplane. Why not have metal detectors at ONE entrance to a school. No one gets in carrying a gun.

George, I don't fly anymore either. Not afraid. As you said, I refuse to put up with the drama. As far as I'm concerned it was the SOB rag heads that caused me to lose my freedom.

Big, same as above. Just offering an opinion. Do you really believe that when the constitution was written the fathers had any idea that automatic weapons were in the offering to normal human beings? Remember, the smooth bore, black powder, single shot musket, was the only weapon available, public or otherwise. Shooting a deer with an AK47 is like driving a tack with a sledge hammer. Also remember that the constitution says "armed militia". I would assume that armed militia implies some militia training.

Have either one of you ever done any "brain storming" as a way to come up with solutions for a difficult problem? I have used that technique for years in my engineering background and it works! Maybe we should try that and offer up several solutions to the problem.

Thanks for letting me share my opinions.


Lavacarancher I respectfully ask you to think about what you said, about the founding fathers of this country. They also didn't know of a world where you and I can communicate in an internet forum or over cell phones, when we are states away from each other. Would that then mean the 1st amendment doesn't cover free speech, because the internet or cell phones didn't exist? The founders of this nation knew what an oppressive, cruel government was, as they had come to America to escape tyranny, in its highest form. They crafted the 2nd amendment to ensure that the citizens of this country, would always have the means protect themselves. From criminals, from foreign enemies and even from the tyranny that may someday come from their own government. While I do not own a black rifle, i.e. AR-15, it isn't up to me or you, or anyone, to decide which weapon, is covered by the 2nd amendment. It gives us the freedom to "bear arms". Cain killed Able with a rock. Evil exists in this world. Blaming the gun simply doesn't make any sense. Blaming the culture of glorifying violence in Hollywood and in video games does! Blaming taking God out of the public and schools and homes does! Blaming gun free zones, where cowards know they have many unarmed targets does! Arming teachers who want to be trained, especially those with law enforcement and military backgrounds does! Increasing security at schools does! And many other things make more sense than blaming a gun. If a drunk driver kills a family on the highway, and he happened to be driving a chevy Silverado 2500 pickup truck, would we ban the truck? I respect your opinion and want you to know that I am heartbroken that we keep dealing with these shootings. But that AR-15 didn't kill one of those kids and teachers. The finger pulling the trigger did! Until we deal with the person attached to that finger and what got him to the point of pulling it, we will continue to have them happen.

For what its worth, my wife teaches at a rural school. Most of the time the nearest deputy sheriff is 30 minutes away. We have waited 45 minutes for law enforcement to respond to serious criminal activity in the past. One man pulled a pistol in our local gas station and threatened to kill everyone. Then he carjacked an older couple and forced them to drive him back toward the big city. It took an hour for multiple jurisdictions to find and arrest him! The differences between a huge inner city school and a tiny rural high school are unbelievable. The is simply no "one-size fits all" legislation that will ever correct this issue. Utah saw that and passed legislation that allows teaches to get a concealed weapons permit. Not one gun has been taken away by a student. And how will we measure the shootings that don't happen because a kid is scared to shoot at people, who may shoot back?
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Re: My take

Postby lavacarancher » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:47 am

Leanin', Yea, I agree that it wasn't the weapon that killed all those beautiful children in Florida. Neither is the car that kills more than 30,000 people a year. I also agree that the purpose of the second amendment is to protect citizens against a bad government. But the second amendment does NOT give a person (any person) the right to walk onto a school campus (or Nevada hotel) and kill innocent people. The weapon of choice is irrelevant. I think folks are hysterical about these incidents and jump on the band wagon about almost anything. Let's clear something up. 1) I don't own an "assault weapon" of any kind. I don't need one. Couldn't afford to shoot one. Don't get my kicks out of shooting one. It is not a hunting weapon. 2) Yes, I am a sportsman. I take a certain amount of pride in "one shot, one kill" at 200 yds. type of hunting for FOOD. If it ever came to defending our country from a tyrannical government I think I could do pretty good with the arsenal I have. If it ever came to a government take over it probably wouldn't be done by a foot shoulder anyway. I think there are several million like thinking individuals in this country that could prevent a take over with rock and sticks and not even have a fully automatic 30 round clip painted black weapon. Probably most of those folks would be military people who would not do something like that anyway.

Lets get by the histrionics for a second. I don't think you and I are that far apart. Here's what I think should be done.
1. Prevent people carrying weapons (of any kind) from getting past the front door of a school. Technology already available and in use.
2. Restrict access to a school - one way in, several ways out. Readily doable. Already being done at airports. Air marshals not a deterrent.
3. Age restrictions on purchase of weapons (black weapons). How many teenagers do you know that have the brains to use their pecker for anything other than sex, let alone own a black weapon. No downside.
4.Background checks for purchase of black weapons (any weapon). I thought this was already in place. Why is it not? Very difficult to do effectively

Please add to the list. Lets make this a discussion instead of getting into the p****d off mode. I would like to see a well thought out response from you and anyone else. Please remember I am a second amendment believer but I am also a believer that killing kids in a school has to be stopped.

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Re: My take

Postby Traveler » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:24 am

lavacarancher wrote:

1. Prevent people carrying weapons (of any kind) from getting past the front door of a school. Technology already available and in use.
2. Restrict access to a school - one way in, several ways out. Readily doable. Already being done at airports. Air marshals not a deterrent.
3. Age restrictions on purchase of weapons (black weapons). How many teenagers do you know that have the brains to use their pecker for anything other than sex, let alone own a black weapon. No downside.
4.Background checks for purchase of black weapons (any weapon). I thought this was already in place. Why is it not? Very difficult to do effectively

Please add to the list. Lets make this a discussion instead of getting into the p****d off mode. I would like to see a well thought out response from you and anyone else. Please remember I am a second amendment believer but I am also a believer that killing kids in a school has to be stopped.

Schools are already gun free zones. Mass shooters favorite place to do their thing. The cluster.... at airports probably isn't something that can be logically implemented in schools at this time.

All the teenagers, our son and others, in our house had firearms. They had a sense of pride about it, mostly being able to buy one because they worked hard, or were cherished gifts. We bought our son his first "assault rifle" for coyote hunting, target practice, etc.... when he was quite young. Young people join the military at 18, and used to be younger. Do they not have control of their brains or peckers yet? The quality of teenagers and adults has a lot to do with the time and effort that was invested in them during their formative years.

As far as this last school shooting, the whole system, federally all the way down to locally, failed miserably. It's all been posted in the Political Bull page. New laws wouldn't have done anything but give the liberals a tingle down their legs. Present laws need to be enforced, and outrageously dumb liberal policies need to be done away with.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=78488&p=702042#p702042

I agree with George, and his support of Air Marshals as well.

Just a side note, I have to wonder what firearm kills the most feral hogs. A semi-auto rifle would be my guess.

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Re: My take

Postby lavacarancher » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:12 am

Traveler wrote:
lavacarancher wrote:

1. Prevent people carrying weapons (of any kind) from getting past the front door of a school. Technology already available and in use.
2. Restrict access to a school - one way in, several ways out. Readily doable. Already being done at airports. Air marshals not a deterrent.
3. Age restrictions on purchase of weapons (black weapons). How many teenagers do you know that have the brains to use their pecker for anything other than sex, let alone own a black weapon. No downside.
4.Background checks for purchase of black weapons (any weapon). I thought this was already in place. Why is it not? Very difficult to do effectively

Please add to the list. Lets make this a discussion instead of getting into the p****d off mode. I would like to see a well thought out response from you and anyone else. Please remember I am a second amendment believer but I am also a believer that killing kids in a school has to be stopped.

Schools are already gun free zonesReally? Doesn't seem to be doing much good to TELL someone not to bring a gun to school.. Mass shooters favorite place to do their thing. The cluster.... at airports probably isn't something that can be logically implemented in schools at this time. WHY NOT!!!! Put in 20 metal detectors so the students and other folks that have a business at the school can pass thru quickly. My God they do it at sports arenas.

All the teenagers, our son and others, in our house had firearms. So did mine and my grandsons.[color=#FF0000]Most places they can't drink yet. Must be a reason for that.[/color]They had a sense of pride about it, mostly being able to buy one because they worked hard, or were cherished gifts. We bought our son his first "assault rifle" for coyote hunting, target practice, etc.... when he was quite young. Young people join the military at 18, and used to be younger. Do they not have control of their brains or peckers yet? The quality of teenagers and adults has a lot to do with the time and effort that was invested in them during their formative years. YES, I agree. Cruz's parents were dead and he probably didn't have a chance in hell of growing up normal. That still doesn't dimeish the fact he shot and killed 17 young folks who will never have the chance to show what they can do.

As far as this last school shooting, the whole system, federally all the way down to locally, failed miserably. It's all been posted in the Political Bull page. New laws wouldn't have done anything but give the liberals a tingle down their legs. Present laws need to be enforced, and outrageously dumb liberal policies need to be done away with. Again, I agree. In fact just about every shooting that has occurred the system failed. The NRA has the politicians by the balls (or they don't have any) and pass laws that are so full of loopholes they are ineffective.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=78488&p=702042#p702042

I agree with George, and his support of Air Marshals as well. Can you give me one verifiable example of where an air marshall prevented an incident on a plane. I'm not talking about dragging a passenger off a plane by his heels because he refused to give up his seat to an airline employee.

Just a side note, I have to wonder what firearm kills the most feral hogs. A semi-auto rifle would be my guess.
Sir, I have two semi-auto rifles. I have zero full auto rifles. I kill feral hogs with a 12 ga shotgun loaded with buckshot. But my place is heavily wooded and I can usually get on them before they know what hit them. I also trap them. Both methods have been very effective. Haven't seen a hog on my place for about two years.

So far the discussion has focused on leaving things as they are. No one (no one) has offered any solutions. Why not? I asked you to add to my list. Come on, you can't complain about something and offer no solution. That makes you part of the problem, not the solution. Something has to give, folks. We can't all have it our way when we have nut cases going around shooting our kids.

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Re: My take

Postby Traveler » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:16 am

2. Restrict access to a school - one way in, several ways out. Readily doable. Already being done at airports.


WHY NOT!!!! Put in 20 metal detectors so the students and other folks that have a business at the school can pass thru quickly. My God they do it at sports arenas.


I'm confused now. You're arguing with yourself.

YES, I agree. Cruz's parents were dead and he probably didn't have a chance in hell of growing up normal. That still doesn't dimeish the fact he shot and killed 17 young folks who will never have the chance to show what they can do.

His mother only died recently. Here's his history. He had no legal right or business buying any weapon. Stopping good kids from owning/ buying a firearm is just another liberal wetdream.


Five school years. Seven schools. Here is a look at how Nikolas Cruz moved through the Broward County Public Schools.

Jan. 23, 2002 – Nikolas Cruz, at three years old, is diagnosed as developmentally delayed.

Feb. 5, 2014 -- At age 15, Nikolas leaves Westglades Middle School in Parkland.

Feb. 6, 2014 – Nikolas starts at Cross Creek, a school in Pompano Beach for students with emotional and behavioral disorders.

June 1, 2015 — A school report says Nikolas is at times distracted by inappropriate conversations by classmates if the discussion is about guns, people being killed, or the armed forces.

Aug. 24, 2015 — Nikolas returns to Cross Creek, but attends Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School two periods a day, Schools Superintendent Robert Runcie said.

Jan. 11, 2016 – Nikolas, now 17, stops attending Cross Creek school.

Jan. 13, 2016 -- He starts attending Stoneman Douglas High full time, Runcie said.

Feb, 5, 2016 — The Broward Sheriff’s Office receives a report from a neighbor that Cruz posted on Instagram that he plans to shoot up the school. Police determined he has knives and a BB gun and passed the information along to the school resource officer, who is a sheriff’s deputy on campus.

August 22, 2016 — After the summer break, Nikolas returns to Stoneman Douglas High.

Sept. 20, 2016 — Nikolas is suspended for fighting.

Sept. 24, 2016 – Nikolas turns 18.

Sept. 28, 2016 – Florida child welfare workers investigate after Nikolas cuts himself while on Snapchat.

Nov. 12, 2016 – Child welfare investigation is closed.

November 2016 — Educational specialists recommend Nikolas transfer back to Cross Creek but he doesn’t want to. Now 18 and legally an adult, Nikolas also refuses to receive further mental health and other services.

Jan. 12, 2017 – Lynda Cruz, Nikolas’ mother, sells the longtime family home at 6166 NW 80th Terrace in Parkland.

Jan 19, 2017 — Nikolas receives an internal one-day suspension for an assault. The school asks the district to conduct a threat assessment on him.

Feb. 8, 2017 – Nikolas is banished from Stoneman Douglas, according to a discipline file.

Feb. 11, 2017 —He buys the AR-15 rifle that he will use one year later in the Stoneman Douglas massacre.

For the next calendar year, Nikolas bounces between various alternative schools for at-risk youth: The Off Campus Learning Centers, the Henry D. Perry Education Center, and the Dave Thomas Education Center. Runcie said his attendance was poor.

Nov. 1, 2017 – Cruz’s mother dies of pneumonia at age 68.

Nov. 30, 2017 — The Broward Sheriff’s Office receives a warning that Nikolas is collecting guns and knives and could be a “school shooter in the making.” The caller notes that Nikolas has moved to Palm Beach County and the deputy refers the caller to the Palm Beach County Sheriff’s Office. That agency said it has no record of any such incident or threat.

Feb. 14, 2018 – Armed with the AR-15 rifle, Cruz, age 19, goes on a shooting rampage at Stoneman Douglas High, killing 17. He flees the building undetected and is later caught wandering around a residential neighborhood.

--Sources: Broward County Public Schools, the Broward Sheriff’s Office, the Florida Department of Children & Families


In case you haven't been keeping up, the Feds didn't do their part at all, and the calls made to the FBI tip line weren't even followed up on, for starters. The threats through social media weren't either. The local law enforcement failed miserably time and again. He should have been put away after 30 some incidents, but no reports were in the system for a background check. You want solutions? Protocol needs to be followed at the FBI, and the state's policy of not charging juveniles must be stopped. Either one of those would have likely stopped what happened. An armed teacher or retired veteran in the school who would have actually done something about the situation would have been one hell of a deterrent as well.

You want me to name an incident that Air Marshals have prevented? How about one they would have prevented? It was called 9-11.

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Re: My take

Postby Ltdumbear » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:30 pm

It's all well & good to have a discussion/debate about what new security-measures or legal-actions/Laws should come out of this most recent tragedy in Florida...but as sure as the Sun will rise tomorrow (for those of us lucky enough to be still alive & breathing) I guarantee that there are SCORES of similarly 'mentally/spiritually-disturbed' out there who...for lack of a better term...are giving serious thought to following in Cruz's footsteps. Why ? because the main-stream media made him 'famous'.

A sad way to become famous, to be sure...but when you're 'disturbed', you don't know the difference, and there's little chance of being convinced otherwise.

That said, we'll let the courts decide what needs to be done to avoid the next massacre, as best they can...

For MY part, over the past few decades (since I physically removed myself from the rest of the 'fast-paced/on-the-go/busy-lifestyle' urban/suburban-world) I have watched with a mixture of horror & shocked-fascination at how the human 'race' is literally de-volvingfrom whatever it was, to what it is now...and I'll grant you that while throughout recorded human-history, there's always been bad-seeds out there...it is becoming painfully obvious to me that things ARE getting worse...

...and over the past decade or so...it is the 'millennials' who are among the latest (and worst) evil-doers, identified in these horrible acts unleashed all around us, and with INCREASING FEROCITY, I might add.

PARENTING. That's what it comes down to, cuz it certainly appears to me that there's a complete & total lack of: A) 'respect for one's elders' B) 'fear of consequences for one's actions' (here OR in the 'next life') and last but certainly NOT least: C) fear of judgement by a 'higher power' than that of man.

Anyone else but me ever happenned to notice that NOTHING seems to matter, to the 'millennials'...because no matter WHAT you say or HOW you say it...it's ALL. ABOUT. THEM.

Now it's the Mom's in charge. Ok, fine...and there's a fair-amount of single-mom's out there, to be sure...and I truly sympathise with them...but there's a flip-side to that coin...

...don't get me wrong, I think 'Woman's Empowerment' is great...but the direct effect is 'emasculation' of those who SHOULD be wearing the 'Pants' in the family, and when the little bastards (offspring of these 'militant-feminists') are ALLOWED to keep-on believing that they can come & go, and do whatever they please, whenever they please, wherever they please IRREGARDLESS of whoever it affects down the line...

...well...just turn on the news...whadd'ya see ?

Nuff said.

Deep down inside (where the truth is really known) I WANT to believe that the dad's of these kids probably (hopefully ?) know what they SHOULD be doing to 'line thier kids out'...but for SOME reason...they are'nt doing it.

THAT is the REAL issue, we should be talking about...is'nt it ?

...the courts will decide everything else out; why would'nt they ? After all, this is how THEY make thier car & house-payments and also (not-so-coincidentally) how they send THIER spoiled little brats to college...lol
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