he lays down when saddled/mounted

[Chuckie]

well, here's what happened: got him out, brushed (a little!) of his winter hair off, saddled him, then (with the lead rope snapped at the bottom of the halter), started to mount.

well, he went down, of course, but he was down on a slope with his back downhill and his feet uphill, and while i did try to pull his head around, and did to a small extent, and he did lie there for just a minute, he was able to get his head around in front enough to get up.

so we did it again, and again he ended up with his feet uphill and i still had the lead rope snapped at the bottom of the halter, and while i pulled his head around, it wasn't enough to stop him getting up (should have had a rope on both sides of the halter to get enough pull to the side).

HOWEVER: i half-mounted him a number of times after, and he never offered to go down again, instead he tried moving off. now he has shown that he will fight a lead rope when he's tied to the horse hitch. he snapped a heavy-duty brass snap , but not the bull-snap, and he's not gonna pull the hitching post out (it's telephone poles sunk 36" deep, with a horizontal pole attached w/3" wide iron/bolts).

the interesting thing about this guy is that he's not being "hateful"--he's just reacting to what he's known in the past. whatever that is. it kinda amazes me that he's willing to fight being tied, but he generally doesn't. i'd bet that if i put him in cross-ties, there wouldn't be a problem.

and he took a nap while i combed/pulled his mane after all the "drama". which there wasn't much of really. i never had more than a halter/lead rope on him (other than the saddle blanket/saddle), and that was plenty to control him--he just needs some consistent work on these issues. i think.

ideas? advice? you all have a lot of time invested here, ya know

[kolanuraven]

If he's that frightful @ being tied...then something 'bad' happened to him while tied.

Be patient here as a tied ,scared horse can be a dangerous horse.

He's just reacting to his memory...and you remember they are animals programmed for flight in the face of danger. They can't help it.

Do you have any way to get any past history on this horse....that may help you get him over some ' fears'.?

[codymccue]

i'd go after 1 trubby at a time.
i think if you go back,i mentioned level ground and "flatten him out"meaning he has to be on his side when you bring his head around.his head needs to end up over his front shoulder more or less.
It sounds to me like yer a bit tentative and need to firm up a bit,no disrespect meant.

maybe we should go at this from another angle...
does he always go down on the same side?

[kolanuraven]

This poor horse is gonna be so screwed up by the time we get done " fixin' him" for this person!!!!

[Faster horses]

I've pretty much stayed out of what to do with this horse, because I think he really has issues that can't be solved unless a knowledgeable 'problem solver' is with the horse. It is easy to make matters worse.

It seems simple, when in reality horses like this one are complicated and the solution is or can be just as complicated.

In my first reply on this thread, I mentioned horses that are cinchy are 'claustrophobic' and they will usually pull back as well. Now Chuckie tells us this horse does pull back. And he broke the snap the last time he pulled back. This is not a good thing. Much more of that happening and he will get really bad about pulling back. When horses pull back, the axis, up by their poll, gets out of whack and a chiropractor is needed to put it back in again. I am not a believer of horse chiropractors except for certain situations and this is one of those situations.

Pat Parelli deals with horses that pull back in an entirely different manner than has been talked about here. There are many ways to 'skin a cat' and I've been around the 'tie the horses down, cover them with a tarp', etc. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. I am in no ways minimizing what has been told to Chuckie here. It is just that when no one here has actually been in the presence of the horse reacting like he does, (except Chuckie) something important could be missed in the telling of the problem. And she could miss something in telling of the solution; such as not having the horse on level ground to do this. There are so many variables that you can't cover them all unless you are right there at the time.

I know there are many skeptics out there about Pat Parelli, but I have observed him at clinics (I never took a clinic myself, only observed) and I saw him help horses that were fearful of being tied, be comfortable being tied up. Pat says how LET THE HORSE UP, is very, very important. Probably more important than how you laid him down.

And Chuckie, if the horse is struggling to get up, just step on the saddle horn (on the backside of the horse; dont' do that standing anywhere except behind his back). He cannot rise when you do that. He can try, but he generally cannot get up.

Good luck to you. I hope this method works. But I agree with kola, he could be really screwed up by now. I hope not...but I think you need some professional help with him and a professional whose 'heart is right'.
He doesn't need a fight, that obviously is what has happened to him in the past to have caused the situation in the first place.

FWIW and good luck.

[Mrs.Greg]

I've been reading this thread with interest. I'm going to finally pop in and agree with Kola and faster. I think that maybe its time that this horse is partnered with someone who knows how to deal with his problam. The more one does to a horse the more they remember. I commend you for your try Chuckie,you've worked hard to solve his problam,but its looking like his problam is bigger then your knowledge.

[Blkbuckaroo]

Well i'll agree with the ladies on this one, sounds like you need some one local to step on this horse and mabye put a little more pressure on him then your comfortable with.We can all tell you from thousands of miles away,but are limited in our diagnosis because we can't see the actual problem.I wish you the best in this endevor,i know you'll get it!It's like you said,it all comes down to TIME!!!Lots of it!!!

[codymccue]

yup-it's hard to do anything through these dern little tv's...I hate to let a horse down,but I'm thinkin there is more to this than meets the eye.
We could offer corrections to problems all day long,but like has been said,it's to easy to miss the little things,and body language too.
Fixin one and makin two isn't much of an answer...

[Chuckie]

i sure appreciate all the input ppl. FWIW, i did note the "level ground" comment, and there isn't much of a slope (but enough of one) and he went down both times on his left side. when i moved him to level ground, he wasn't going down. go figure...

and FH, i re-read your post on cinchy/claustrophobic horses after he broke the lead snap (well, actually before, then RE-read it after). and thought "hmmm, what's the relationship here?" don't have a handle on THAT yet, but insight would be good (hint,hint).

talked to the owner yesterday, we'll see what happens next time we saddle him. if the owner's good with his current behavior, i'm not gonna mess with it; owner can hire a pro if he wants it fixed--i don't want to create more problems with this horse. he's basically agood guy once he lies down and gets back up. but we won't be riding him either b/c i won't keep letting him get away with it.

"why ride a bull when there's so many good saddle horses out there?"