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desertrose
Member
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Posts: 60
Location: somewhere
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 Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Im sorry but i feel to many people raise dogs not knowing what there all about ...i guess i feel you better research before doing so and yes maybe there is a genetic link to this problem ..im sorry but i have raised them for many years and people shouldnt just go mating something that they have no clue about....to raise puppies that have genetic problems...Im sorry if i stepped on your toes...i was told when i started raising them and she has been in the aussie show world for many years and educated me on them before i even started raising them... i guess if i paid alot of money for a puppy i would want it to be sound....just like when u buy a bull or a colt u wouldnt buy one that is blind or has a limp to it when u know the problem cant be corrected.
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Jinglebob
Rancher
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 5727
Location: Western South Dakota
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| desertrose wrote: |
| she has been in the aussie show world for many years and educated me on them before i even started raising them. |
Just got to puy my 2 cents worth in here.
People like you are talking about with this lady, if she is in the AKC, are the kind who have screwed up most working dog breeds.
Thats why the Border Collie people fought so hard to keep Border Collies out of the AKC.
Border Collies were bred and raised to work and that is why they are so varied in size and color. When you start breeding for just one thing, as in looks, like the Halter horse people and the show dog people, thats when you start getting poor animals who have genetic problems.
Look at the Quarter Horse people and Impressive.
We need to cull for soundness and forget about looks only.
Look at what they did with the German Sheperd dog. At one time they were great stock dogs. Now they are mostly show dogs and have weird underslung hips, as that is what wins at the shows. As I understand it, many are in bad shape when they are still young, because of this.
Robert Miller had a great story in the last Cowboy Magazine, about the people who have somewhat done this with the horse breeds and especially the race horse people. And the ones who over feed and over work animals at way to young of an age. Hell, some are doing it to their kids!
Just my 2 cents worth and don't get mad at me.
I don't raise animals with defects and I sure won't start.
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IL Rancher
Rancher
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 3023
Location: Northwest Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah the border folks fought long and hard and I think the ones that kept their animals out of he AKC well, the animals I have seen from AKC lines and non AKC are like two different breeds...
We run Kelpies as stock dogs, unfortunately they are much better than their handler.. I know there have been a few advances by AKC types and have been met with zero enthusiasm.. Still a minor enough breed that they will be left alone for a while... Most people see them and ask me what the heck is that, A germa Shepered Doberman cross? When the one was a pup it was always "rat Terrier?".. Nope.. aggravating as heck Kelpie...
The German shepherd were bred to have a slopped back like Rin Tin Tin.. Runind the breed (And I love sheps)... We went looking for one that could work a few years ago when we settled on Kelpies.. I might try again for a Malinois but they have been turned into schutzhund and SAR dogs for the most part... The old main land European herding dogs seems to have really moved away from that use.
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Jinglebob
Rancher
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 5727
Location: Western South Dakota
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| IL Rancher wrote: |
Yeah the border folks fought long and hard and I think the ones that kept their animals out of he AKC well, the animals I have seen from AKC lines and non AKC are like two different breeds...
We run Kelpies as stock dogs, unfortunately they are much better than their handler.. I know there have been a few advances by AKC types and have been met with zero enthusiasm.. Still a minor enough breed that they will be left alone for a while... Most people see them and ask me what the heck is that, A germa Shepered Doberman cross? When the one was a pup it was always "rat Terrier?".. Nope.. aggravating as heck Kelpie...
The German shepherd were bred to have a slopped back like Rin Tin Tin.. Runind the breed (And I love sheps)... We went looking for one that could work a few years ago when we settled on Kelpies.. I might try again for a Malinois but they have been turned into schutzhund and SAR dogs for the most part... The old main land European herding dogs seems to have really moved away from that use. |
We have a guy who moved into this country some years back. He's one of the top trainers of Border Collies, for trials, in the US.
He was telling why the Scottish dogs were so highly thought of, for so many years.
He said that when a Scottish herder had a dog, who he knew was capable of doing the job, he would send it up on a mountain to bring back a ewe and her lamb, for instance. When the dog came back, if he didn't bring the ewe and the lamb, the herder would pull out his knife and slit the dogs throat! didn't matter how much he liked thew dog, he couldn't afford to keep one around that wasn't a good one.
Now, that sounds harsh to most of us, but over there they have no time for a dog who won't do the job. Subsequentley (sp) they only bred the best to the best and had very good dogs.
If people over here would cull as hard as that, on all the different animals we raise, I think we could really raise the bar.
And the fellow also said that we have as good as the Scots do now, if you go to the right breeders, as they aren't afraid to cull hard and only breed the best proven dogs to the best proven dogs. They cost more, but they are worth it.
Maybe we all need stop worrying about pretty and worry more about what a critter can do.
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Silver
Rancher
Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Posts: 1397
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| IL Rancher wrote: |
Yeah the border folks fought long and hard and I think the ones that kept their animals out of he AKC well, the animals I have seen from AKC lines and non AKC are like two different breeds...
We run Kelpies as stock dogs, unfortunately they are much better than their handler.. I know there have been a few advances by AKC types and have been met with zero enthusiasm.. Still a minor enough breed that they will be left alone for a while... Most people see them and ask me what the heck is that, A germa Shepered Doberman cross? When the one was a pup it was always "rat Terrier?".. Nope.. aggravating as heck Kelpie...
The German shepherd were bred to have a slopped back like Rin Tin Tin.. Runind the breed (And I love sheps)... We went looking for one that could work a few years ago when we settled on Kelpies.. I might try again for a Malinois but they have been turned into schutzhund and SAR dogs for the most part... The old main land European herding dogs seems to have really moved away from that use. |
Kelpies are great dogs. I worked on a ranch with Kelpies and Huntaways(sp?) and really was impressed by the Kelpies. Been keeping my eyes open for one for a long time now.
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IL Rancher
Rancher
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 3023
Location: Northwest Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| I got three... Want one.. lol... There are some breeders up in Idaho, Oregon and even Calfiforna that have some nice ones.. They would ship em. Mine come from Idaho, Wisconsin and Oklahoma respectively... Look like three diffferent breeds of dogs but looks don't mean much to me when it comes to dogs...
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desertrose
Member
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Posts: 60
Location: somewhere
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| this lady i was educated by wasnt in akc they were in asca ...she bred for stock dog trials and agility...all im saying is just not fair to the dog to take away something from them that a breeder could have prevented...thats all and you didnt make me mad and i agree with the breeding...all i wanted to raise was a stock dog that could work well for ranchers and farmers..like a hired hand a good dog is a valuable partner.....
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Jinglebob
Rancher
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 5727
Location: Western South Dakota
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Howdyjabo
Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 27
Location: NC
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:23 am Post subject: |
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The Border Collie people fought long and hard to keep AKC out of the breed--
Then when they lost-- a good percentage of the "fighers" jumped the fence and dual registered with or courted the AKC- thats where the big money is.
There isn't and never will be a "paper" or "breed name" or "lineage" or even a "trial" record ----that guarantees work ability let alone breeding ability .
Have to do your research and find the dogs that are being used HARD for generations--- in simular situations as you are wanting to use a dog.
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Jinglebob
Rancher
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 5727
Location: Western South Dakota
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Howdyjabo wrote: |
The Border Collie people fought long and hard to keep AKC out of the breed--
Then when they lost-- a good percentage of the "fighers" jumped the fence and dual registered with or courted the AKC- thats where the big money is.
There isn't and never will be a "paper" or "breed name" or "lineage" or even a "trial" record ----that guarantees work ability let alone breeding ability .
Have to do your research and find the dogs that are being used HARD for generations--- in simular situations as you are wanting to use a dog. |
Yup.
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EastTexasGal
Member
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 466
Location: DEEPEST OF EAST TEXAS
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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I will always be partial to a TRUE BORDER! I was in on the battle to keep them out of the AKC, and no I did not jump the fence. I bred Borders for over 12 yrs and always had a waiting list for them...they were so versatile. I gave my last male away when I could no longer work them. I am back to where I could handle one now but, I am so picky when it comes to the type I want. I like the larger border, stocky..not wolfie. Imported Sam bloodlines..my female that I started with, both her parents were imported from Ireland..but made GREAT ALL AROUND STOCK DOGS!! they would work a bull rough...get a nose ear or whatever they could to demand respect. Then turn around work a calf slowww and so easy. They just had that natural instinct to do what was necessary. I can not remember a pup out of her that did not work like her. We have gotten 3 since I started looking, and hadnt found that dog...some say you only have one Great Dog in your life time...and many good ones. I hope to find that one that matches up again soon!! With it being so many years...some you talk to I ask about bloodlines and I get lost now..lol
They are crossing the Kelpies with Borders around here for the stock dog trials..to get more agression is what I am told. I have never messed with a Kelpie. They host one of the richest Futurities in our area...geez guess I forgot it was this month. Probably already done...but it is a great place to meet up with some great Stock Dog folks.
Easty
http://www.lscdf.com/default.asp
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Faster horses
Rancher
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 9423
Location: MT/SD
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