Hackamore vs Bit Question.

[TimH]

I'm an idiot when it comes to horses and tack. But I know enough to have the opinion that I don't like forcing a horse to have a bit in it's mouth.
I realize that this has been done for hundreds of years etc. etc........I just don't like it.
Here's why......... When I was a kid a couple of the neighbor's daughters would ride over on their ponies and my sister would go riding with them. Those ponies mouths would be bleeding at times. I know that that has more to do with "operator abuse" than any inherent problems with a bit , but it has stuck with me and turned me off using them.
Some other neighbors always rode with hackamores and their horses all neckreigned. Any riding I did when I was a kid was with them, and I always liked the hacks.
I'm sending my 4 yr. old gelding for some training soon and plan on using a hackamore when he comes back. My wife is quite expierenced in dressage and jumping and always rides with a bit.She rolls her eyes at me when I get on about using a hack.
My question is, what do you experienced horse-folk use? If you use a hackamore, what type? Am I just being a sissy???

[Jinglebob]

I use a hackamore or more properly, a bosal, as it doesn't have the fiador around the neck, and then work them into a bit when they are light and understand what I want with slight rein signals.

A good hackamore horse can do anything a dressage horse can, IMO. And I'm not knocking the dressage either.

It's not the bit, it's the hands and the body that run the bit and send the signals.

Just my 2 cents worth.

If you can get what you want with a hackamore, use it and make no apoligies.

Many of my horses still ride the best in the bosal. Not all horses make flash reined bridal horses.

I know quite a few guys who ride all of their horses in a ring snaffle all of their lives.

[Big Muddy rancher]

We start most all our colts with a ring snaffle and they seem to stay in them for years. We can neck rein the ones that do and still get the job done on the ones that don't. No bleeding mouths either, it is nice to have a horse in a shanked bit but if your not riding enough I don't mind keeping them in the snaffle.

[Faster horses]

On most horses, Mr. FH likes the ring snaffle. When roping and only using one hand, he goes to something else. He also likes to ride a horse in a halter...no kidding...(though I'm not crazy about the way it looks...)

I wonder if Tim H isn't asking about a mechanical Hackamore, which is quite a different thing than what Jinglebob is talking about. So which is it, TimH? A rawhide bosal with a knot under the jaw (for lack of a better way of describing it) or a noseband that goes over the nose with nothing in the mouth but with a shank on the sides and a curb strap?

Guess we need to know which one you are talking about in order to give you an answer.

[Paul]

IMO you use what works best for the horse you are ridding, not the bit or bosal you like, the one the horse likes. Keep in mind it is better to have control of your horse, than it is to look cool. If your sending your horse out for training than ask to have the horse tried with a bosal.

I went home a few years ago to help with the round up & my sister asked me to ride this gray horse she was having problems with. When got got on and started riding off he wanted to test me by bucking a little & slinging his head, but then all was fine, the horse was really nice as we all rode out together. So as we split up to cover the upper east end of 30,000 acres all hell broke loose, well not really, but lets say I was not liking my ride. As I would ask him to go one woy or the other he would fight me flipping his head to the point he lost his footing on a hill fell down I jumped off & back on as he was getting up again. I left the six or eight pair I had there & rode back to camp. Thank God I was only a few miles out. On the way back I thought I would get another horse, but at camp I found this old [url=http://www.nrsworld.com/istar.asp?a=6&id=DM-108!DENMO&csurl=%2Fistar%2Easp%3Fa%3D3%26dept%3D12%26class%3D107%26]sidepull[/url] so I tried it & it was like I had a new horse. The next day I put a rawhide bosal on him & he worked cows as good as any. Was a real joy to ride. Sorry for the long story I just wanted you to see how a little change can make a bad horse good. By the way the bit was a snaffle with little shanks, he just didn't like it.

Paul

[OD/NT]

This is a sore spot with me - I learent from the Best Charlie Maggini - Top Trainers Brag about Riding with the so called "Briddle Man"for a few Days. I rode with him from around 12y to 18y and again after the service from 23y to about 25y at Henry Coe Ranch.

I knew Charlie as a Hackamore Man. This thread got me started reading Hackamore Links.

While I can't fully agree with any of them the best one I've found SO FAR is

http://www.elvaquero.com/The%20Hackamore.htm

I agree with most of this below

What most good hands soon learn when using the hackamore is the simple fact that there are maneuvers and exercises that a horse might be "made" to do in a snaffle bit, but the hackamore requires that the horse be "taught" to do them.

Note - Good Hands ='s a Good Hackamore Man (I can dam near watch a man pick-up the hair rope and tell if he has "HANDS".)

Read this:
The most valuable contribution the hackamore makes in the training process is the deficiencies it reveals in the rider. Few know or understand this principle. When using the hackamore it is essential that the rider set up his maneuvers correctly and fully support the cues he gives his mount. The rider’s body positioning, weight placement, timing and sensitivity must be correct in order for the hackamore horse to translate those cues.
The message the actual hackamore itself can offer is so subtle that the horse will feel for the accompanying cues from the rider’s legs, weight and posture to confirm the message before acting on it. If the rider is out of position or offering inconsistent cues elsewhere, the horse will quickly lose confidence in the hackamore’s cue and become muddled and confused.
This unique characteristic of the hackamore might possibly be its greatest contribution to the equine world. It requires a level of horsemanship and handiness to operate it successfully. A cowboy must know and understand all of the peripheral cues used to position his horse as he should before he can support the hackamore the way it must be supported.
The hackamore is a key phase for this reason. It trains or reinforces the concept in the rider that the horse is to be taught to respond to messages, later called signals, in the final stages of putting a horse in the bridle. It is extremely important that the rider know how to set up, support and deliver his cues consistently with all the tools he has to work with.

I've only seen a few Hackamore Men of Late!
I'd say to stay with a Snaffle Bit

I was GOOD but far from the best! Having riden with the best I know:!:

[OD/NT]

Paul (I can't make the link work ether)
Paist "Dennis Moreland Sidepull" into Google

I've tried one of your Dennis Moreland Sidepull and had little use for it - I don't care to drag a horse around - might be OK for a roper but not a Horseman. Made a good Halter

[katrina]

All I use to ride my colts in where bosals. But I found it took a little time for them to get used to the bit and seemed like on some colts started all over again.... With a bosal a person has to be really light handed or they get unresponsive. I've started to ride mine in a snaffle bit side pull. And to me, it seems they pickup from the halter to the snaffle alot faster and it's almost effortless. But then too I ride with my feet and shift my weight so that I really don't neckrein them alot..... I try and make the horse think he is doing the work, which makes them want to work...It seems like if you geehaw and force a colt or horse they quit you and then it's alot of work..... Giving a horse a chance to work wether it be sorting cattle or working a rope is a slow process... To me there is nothing more satisfying having a colt turn a cow on his own or make a move on his own. When they do this it's time to quit them for the day and do more another day......OMHO.

[floyd]

When I was riding more & breaking colts for riding I used a bosal.

I do not ride much anymore. Still start colts but use a snaffle because it is unhandy for me to use a bosal with lines.

There are some that work harness horses with a halter.


No one mentioned the other cues we use when working off a colt's back.

[Northern Rancher]

Unfortunately most of us mere mortals have to chose between perfection and utility in our horsemanship and horses-we ride mostly with a ring snaffle but I've had horses you could ride with a halter and rope calves etc. In our country we don't have a ten mile ride to get the kinks sorted out before work starts so you get by with works best for you and the horse. I'm not much of a horseman but I get pretty choked watching guys do things wrong I can imagine how frustrating it is for guys who are good at what they do. Just sitting back and observing at a branding can be pretty enlightening.

[RoperAB]

[RoperAB]

Sorry im if my last post sounded snotty. I did not mean it that way. But im doing everything that they do in dressage and more.
The only thing they are doing different in dressage is that the way they are riding with contact they are getting a higher level of collection which helps them in there slow motion type of riding.
I do love dressage and I have a lot of respect for gals like Any Van Grunsven.