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Mrs.Greg
Rancher
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 6126
Location: Alberta
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Liberty Belle
Rancher
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 1677
Location: northwestern South Dakota
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 Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Northern Rancher wrote: |
Anarchy-the absence of government or control resulting in lawlessness
2. disorder and confusion
Every now and then I visit these posts and fail to see the logic. Am I right in assuming the lockout ranchers want to deny game wardens access to check hunters. But they still want to be able to allow paid hunting on the same property. If that isn't a recipe for definition one I don't know what is. Anybody reading the myriad of posts and seeing the bitterness and lack of logic involved can see how this issue definately fills the bill for definition number two. If you have nothing to hide what is the problem with allowing a game warden access-we do-I don't feel violated by this in the least. If you operate on leased ground or receive ANY form of government funding you better be prepared to accept some involvement in your operation. Anybody who doesn't is really nothing better than a garden variety hypocrite. I've hunted for alot of years and ranched for longer-I KNOW that if you turn somebody loose behind a locked gate with no chance of being checked the temptation to break the game laws will be pretty great. You accept and abide by the laws of the land as a good citizen-you don't pick and choose the ones you and your cronies find that fit your agenda Has this attitude come about in the last five years or so-I never encountered anything quite like it when I used to travel to South Dakota pretty regular-it isn't a change for the better if it has. |
Where ya been NR? I was sure you’d jump in with your opinion before this. And, as usual, you’ve got your facts all wrong. The only lack of logic here is reflected in posts like yours and the hunters posting here that can’t stand the thought of landowners protecting themselves from abuse by a governmental agency.
How do you know what illegal activity is committed behind locked gates – personal experience? And did you get caught? Do you allow cops to come into your house unannounced to see what crimes they might catch you committing, and if not, why not?
Most of us in the lockout have never charged a dime to let anyone hunt our land and don’t ever intend to charge, although that is our right if we wanted to put up with the liability issues involved in this sue-happy country.
The lockout was never about stopping hunting, it was to prevent an out-of-control state agency from further violation of our property rights. I must say, it has been working perfectly, much to the chagrin of GF&P, SDWF, Tony Dean, and a bunch of hunting groups that think they should have the right to tell landowners what we can and cannot do on our land.
Landowners have lost nothing in this fight. The losers are hunters who used to hunt over four million acres of prime hunting land for nothing. Until hunters begin to work with the landowners to rein in GF&P, there is no reason for us to open our land ever again.
And ya know what? Hunting season is a lot more fun since we’ve been locked out. My father-in-law used to tell me that he looked forward to hunting season about like he looked forward to a three-day blizzard! We’re kinda getting’ used to this peace and quiet.
Sorry about that… 
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P Joe
Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 414
Location: Central SD
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Southdakotahunter
Member
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 496
Location: Southeast rural South Dakota
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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I dont think its a pay to hunt thing entirely, but some how some think "fine..if the gfp is gonna be that way, its gonna be pay to hunt now"
They get things mixed up, such as entering a farm house/buildings without a warrent with checking someone hunting on the land for a license. Some think they should have to wait on the road to check for licenses. I know i have never been checked for a license on private land, but im sure it happens. There are even others, that allow coyote hunting on their land, yet say they are in the lockout. somehow, coyote hunting is not hunting to them, or the gfp wouldnt check them for a license or something, dont know the real reasoning behind that. I hear protecting my herd and such as to the reasoning, like the deer and goats that are eating up all this feed for their animals, is not some sort of a threat to their ranch?
Then, they try to make laws that say the wildlife accidents caused by god should come with a $200 payment by the gfp, as long as the driver didnt initiate the accident, like the deer is gonna tell on em?? They testify at hearings in favor of the law they want to pass, they have locked out to hunting, yet complain there are too many deer. Its nuts! After all is said and done, they are not even responsible if one of their cattle get onto the hwy and cause a wreck, but for heaven sake, lets make the gfp pay for a deer wreck........gosh dang game and fish department anyway...who do they think they are??
They says the lockout has been a great success, yet i know of ranchers who are no longer in the lockout anymore because the antelope herds are getting out of hand. I wonder why?
So successful, their website has been taken down
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publichunter
Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 149
Location: central, SD
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: |
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How do you know what illegal activity is committed behind locked gates – personal experience? And did you get caught? Do you allow cops to come into your house unannounced to see what crimes they might catch you committing, and if not, why not?
LB as usual your paranoia takes over, "open Fields" has nothing to do with Law Enforcement coming into your home, it only has to do with your land, and it isnt just GF&P that can use open fields it is ANY Law enforcement that has propable cause to do so. When you get a license from GF&P any person can ask to see it and you cant refuse. IT is license compliance checks that give the GF&P game warden the authority to come onto your land not into your house.
I dont beleive for a second that there is 4 million acres locked up, expecially when GF&P continues to sign more walk-in areas in your neighborhood. |
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Liberty Belle
Rancher
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 1677
Location: northwestern South Dakota
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| P Joe wrote: |
Your right hunters have lost the most out of this, but tell me again why you are making this problem the hunters problem?? They don't have any more power over GF&P than landowners do.
But according to you and your side kicks, it cost so much to keep the states critters feed, so it is costing the landowners too, and according to some of your "locked out ranchers" it must cost $1500/deer/year to keep them feed  |
You’ve got that wrong – it wasn’t the landowners who made this the hunter’s problem. By not demanding that landowners who were hosting your free hunting be treated fairly by GF&P, the hunting groups shot themselves in the butt.
If you want to see this go back to the way things were before GF&P screwed everything up for hunters by trampling on landowners, you can step up to the plate and demand that GF&P change. Like I said, hunters are the only folks in this fight with anything to lose and you’ll keep on losing until you and your hunting groups put pressure on GF&P to do the right thing.
| Southdakotahunter wrote: |
I dont think its a pay to hunt thing entirely, but some how some think "fine..if the gfp is gonna be that way, its gonna be pay to hunt now"
They get things mixed up, such as entering a farm house/buildings without a warrent with checking someone hunting on the land for a license. Some think they should have to wait on the road to check for licenses. I know i have never been checked for a license on private land, but im sure it happens. There are even others, that allow coyote hunting on their land, yet say they are in the lockout. somehow, coyote hunting is not hunting to them, or the gfp wouldnt check them for a license or something, dont know the real reasoning behind that. I hear protecting my herd and such as to the reasoning, like the deer and goats that are eating up all this feed for their animals, is not some sort of a threat to their ranch?
Then, they try to make laws that say the wildlife accidents caused by god should come with a $200 payment by the gfp, as long as the driver didnt initiate the accident, like the deer is gonna tell on em?? They testify at hearings in favor of the law they want to pass, they have locked out to hunting, yet complain there are too many deer. Its nuts! After all is said and done, they are not even responsible if one of their cattle get onto the hwy and cause a wreck, but for heaven sake, lets make the gfp pay for a deer wreck........gosh dang game and fish department anyway...who do they think they are??
They says the lockout has been a great success, yet i know of ranchers who are no longer in the lockout anymore because the antelope herds are getting out of hand. I wonder why?
So successful, their website has been taken down |
If a landowner wants to charge hunters to hunt on his own land to recover a little of the money he’s lost to wildlife damage, that’s his right. But they will still have to put up with abuse from GF&P if they allow hunting at all. Getting paid for it might make the abuse a little easier to take though.
I hate to bust your bubble, but the lockout has certainly been a success out here. The website has been taken down because there was no longer any reason for it. I suppose depriving you of a forum for your landowner hating comments upset you when you had to move your nasty comments to this board?
I think this is wonderful - you can display your arrogance and ignorance and it doesn’t cost us a dime to maintain the website!! We do appreciate all you do to illustrate to the ranchers on here the "sportsman" mind-set landowners have to deal with in South Dakota.
Sweet!!
| publichunter wrote: |
LB as usual your paranoia takes over, "open Fields" has nothing to do with Law Enforcement coming into your home, it only has to do with your land, and it isnt just GF&P that can use open fields it is ANY Law enforcement that has propable cause to do so. When you get a license from GF&P any person can ask to see it and you cant refuse. IT is license compliance checks that give the GF&P game warden the authority to come onto your land not into your house.
I dont beleive for a second that there is 4 million acres locked up, expecially when GF&P continues to sign more walk-in areas in your neighborhood. |
You’re free to believe whatever makes you feel good. Have at it!!
I’m going to type really slow so you can understand because, as many times as we’ve been through this, you just don’t seem to be able to grasp what the Open Fields Doctrine does.
I’ve discussed this issue with several county sheriffs and our elected law enforcement officers are NOT allowed to go driving across private land looking for illegal activity. Real law enforcement must have reasonable suspicion of illegal activity, probable cause to believe a crime has been committed, or actually see a crime in progress before they can trespass.
GF&P claims the “right” to trespass just because they might find someone hunting in the wrong unit, not wearing blaze orange or something and they also claim they don't need either probable cause or reasonable suspicion.
The deer police claim they don’t even need to see a hunter walking across through the pasture, wearing orange and packing a gun during hunting season, to drive onto private property without the knowledge or permission of the landowner to snoop around. And you wonder why we’re mad? 
Hey, maybe you’re starting to understand!! It is the HUNTER who has the license and must show it to anyone who asks. When we realized that GF&P demanded to trespass on our property to make sure hunters were not breaking the law, we locked out hunters to protect ourselves from GF&P’s criminal activity.
You don’t like that? That's your problem, not ours.
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publichunter
Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 149
Location: central, SD
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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LB as always the black helicopters are waiting.....
If YOU (now I will type slowly for you also too follow along) and your lock-out friends beleives so strongly that "open Fields" is illegal for compliance checks by GF&P take it to court and see?
To date so far the Supreme Court upholds the concept of "open Fields" test it and see if you are so sure.
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Liberty Belle
Rancher
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 1677
Location: northwestern South Dakota
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| publichunter wrote: |
LB as always the black helicopters are waiting.....
If YOU (now I will type slowly for you also too follow along) and your lock-out friends beleives so strongly that "open Fields" is illegal for compliance checks by GF&P take it to court and see?
To date so far the Supreme Court upholds the concept of "open Fields" test it and see if you are so sure. |
If we catch GF&P on our land without permission, our sheriff is not only willing but VERY eager to arrest them for trespassing and then we are going to court again. Won’t that be fun?
Former GF&P Sec. Cooper didn’t even get a slap on the wrist when he helped Sen. Daschle’s aide Eric Washburn break state law. That made it pretty plain that the attorney general and GF&P have no respect for the law. Doesn’t that bother you?
On the other hand, the GF&P pilot that started this whole fiasco served hard time and is now on probation. Since he is a convicted felon, he is no longer able posses a firearm so GF&P had to let him go. Evidently, he wasn’t as important as Cooper and Washburn.
GF&P is a lot more careful than they used to be, but they show no sign of wamting to get along with landowners and there will be no locked-out land opened to you guys until things change.
Do you see those black helicopters often?
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publichunter
Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 149
Location: central, SD
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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LB no matter what the GF&P would do for you , you will never be happyuntil you control the deer license.
There is no pleaseing some of you
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CattleArmy
Rancher
Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 2381
Location: South of a Soapweed
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Larrry
Rancher
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 1280
Location: Utah and points east
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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What would one think if the sherrif had a Game Officer help him in an investigation.
It has happened numerous times they have used them in order to beat the system and not have to get a search warrant. If the LEO has a legit cause then he can get a warrant as he is obligated to do instead of misusing the GO and the laws to justify his wants. That is the problem I have with the GO, they are misued by some LEO because they have more power than the LEO.
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SJ
Member
Joined: 26 Feb 2005
Posts: 282
Location: ludlow, SD
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Private landowners have willingly fed and housed the wildlife/public trust for GF&P’s business enterprise.
Landowners have paid for their use of the public land, hunters use for nothing.
Some hunters want, and GF&P would like to demand, free recreational access if landowners use the “stack yard program” (fencing the wildlife out of the landowners feed they have brought in and paid for and hay they have put up and fenced for their livestock.)
Some feel private property should be subjected to search and seizure without reasonable suspicion or probable cause if free access is allowed.
For what? A few less deer or elk, added risk of fire or livestock shot accidentally, last and probably most important, added liability!!!!!
Why would anyone risk loosing their property to the added liability of allowing free access for a few less deer?
Why would anyone subject themselves to being considered a criminal without probable cause or reasonable suspicion by allowing access “free access”?
I still have the right to protect my property— I think that one is still in the constitution.
I have no contract with GF&P. The hunter has the contract. The hunter gives up some of his rights when he buys/signs a license, but he has a choice.
If some hunters feel strongly about GF&P’s use of the open fields doctrine— hunt the public land.
I feel the majority of individuals are good law abiding people and most will not do wrong or succumb to criminal activity if not watched. I also don’t feel those in power are better people or any more trustworthy.
I feel I have the right to know who is on my land and why.
Some one said 1000 dollars was outrageous for access. Well I wouldn’t charge any less than 3,000 dollars, for the added liability of allowing access. The hunt would be free but responsibility would be expensive but you have a choice, hunt public land.
One of you said it was the hunters that kept the GF&P’s abuse of the open field’s doctrine alive—you are right— you own that decision and will have to live with it. When you talk about this becoming a rich man’s sport/recreation, thank the guy in the mirror and GF&P.
One stated the Supreme Court findings on the open fields and I will say again read the cases and show me one that has no reasonable suspicion or probable cause or a crime in plain view or under some contract with GF&P or fish and wildlife before they entered.
A John P. sent me three cases, two of which I already had, but failed to leave a return address or phone number. He evidently didn’t feel confident enough to put his full name or address. I suppose GF&P’s use of the open fields will be tested someday.
Most if not all have been tied to land one time or another. Some decided to stay on the land. I don’t think those who stayed should have to be a free playground because your family decided to leave—in the same token I don’t expect the people in the city to provide free recreation for the people on the land and they don’t.
I shouldn’t be penalized for staying and you shouldn’t be mad or jealous because you or your ancestors decided to go.
I am not willing to allow (free) access or any access for a recreation that has more risks than benefits and considers me a criminal with out reason.
We were told the only way to prohibit GF&P’s interpretation/use of the open fields doctrine was not to allow access.
I have nothing to hide but I wonder what GF&P has to hide by not asking permission.
Susan Clarkson
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Great post Corey 